The Manchester 2035 Podcast

00:00:05:00 - 00:00:24:15
Unknown
So, hello and welcome everyone to the special Manchester 2035 Q&A podcast. I'm Jules McLachlan. I work in the Directorate of Communications, and I'm delighted to guide us through today's session. Over the past few months, we've gathered questions from strategy workshops, local events, and also our recent town hall.

00:00:24:17 - 00:00:43:06
Unknown
And unfortunately, we weren't able to address all the questions, in those settings just due to time constraints, really. So this podcast really is our chance to dive a bit deeper into the key themes that you've raised. So the first thing I'll ask you to do is for our panelists to introduce themselves. And I'll start with Duncan. Hi, everyone.

00:00:43:06 - 00:00:46:02
Unknown
Duncan Iverson, president, vice chancellor, University of Manchester.

00:00:46:02 - 00:01:05:09
Unknown
My name is Mabelle Luongo. I'm senior lecturer in science, policy and innovation at the Lyons Manchester Business School. And my research is around the role of universities. What they're how they are organized nations, contribute to regional development, economic growth and. Yeah, what is what we do really?

00:01:05:11 - 00:01:13:23
Unknown
Brian and Mark. Hi everyone. I'm Mark Healy, professor of strategic management, and I'm the head of the innovation, management and Policy division of Alliance Manchester Business School.

00:01:13:23 - 00:01:15:16
Unknown
Brilliant. Thank you so much.

00:01:15:16 - 00:01:25:08
Unknown
So we'll use our time together, to explore the questions and concerns that our colleagues have highlighted and to make sure we have the maximum out of time for questions.

00:01:25:14 - 00:01:55:22
Unknown
I'm going to just dive straight in. So the first question, is for you, Duncan. And it's come from the School of Natural Sciences. So in FSE and the question is around, the university also had a 2020 strategic plan, which, it failed to fulfill in many respects. So examples given here, being 90% on student satisfaction and the NSS, being in the top quartile of the Russell Group.

00:01:55:24 - 00:02:16:18
Unknown
So why will 2035 be different? Yeah. Great question. And I guess the test will the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak. Right. So I think in terms of teaching, yeah, the outcomes just weren't acceptable. Right. We're at 75% positivity. That's a long way away from our goal. And we're in the bottom quartile of the Russell Group.

00:02:16:18 - 00:02:35:05
Unknown
So it's a long, long way from our goal. So everything we're talking about in the space is not exclusively to do with and assess or what aspect of student experience, but thinking about our teaching and learning in the round, in the whole. And maybe that's something that we just haven't done as an institution in a systematic enough way in the past.

00:02:35:05 - 00:02:53:10
Unknown
I mean, we need to do some things right away, I thought, because when I arrived, that was clearly a problem, and it's just not acceptable to have those outcomes, as I've said, a number of forms, but as I've been listening to people, as I've been learning more about our teaching and learning, a sort of, framework, as have been, you know, thinking more about our offer to our students.

00:02:53:12 - 00:03:13:10
Unknown
Yeah, I think what's what we need to do is take a systematic approach. So some of the big ideas that are emerging around are kind of embracing a digital, a framework for our for our teaching, learning, the flexible learning work that, you know, Dan and others have led, but also thinking about how we support our teachers, how we think about our curricula.

00:03:13:12 - 00:03:39:05
Unknown
You know, the big idea around service learning that's beginning to emerge. I mean, these are exactly the conversations we have to have. So, look, I think the I think the difference will be between 2020 and 2000 and, 35 hopefully is just the focus we bring to teaching and learning. And I don't see that. That's not saying that people weren't focused before, but I think the focus has to really sharpen and be more systematic.

00:03:39:05 - 00:03:44:02
Unknown
So I hope that's the difference. But yeah, I mean, we need to hold ourselves accountable to that.

00:03:44:02 - 00:03:54:00
Unknown
a I mean, it's a really great question, isn't it. One thing I would say is that, if you pick out particular goals that we had in 2020 or even in 2020, go, but there's always going to be goals that we didn't quite reach.

00:03:54:03 - 00:04:10:08
Unknown
And if that wasn't the case, you'd probably say that the goals were yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know, maybe next time in 2030 there will be very specific targets that we still don't hit. And if we hit all of our targets, it's probably means that we've not been targeting enough and setting the targets. But one thing that I would say the question behind the question is really asking about what?

00:04:10:08 - 00:04:26:09
Unknown
Why is it going to be different this time? I mean, I get a sense that perhaps in the past we've had, the attitude of trying to improve by getting better at what we've always done and trying to improve in that way. I get the sense now that there's a real sense of we need to improve and improve by doing things a little bit differently.

00:04:26:09 - 00:04:45:20
Unknown
And actually, that's often where the biggest changes in performance come when we can step outside of our existing ways of working and think, okay, how do we get better? By being different or doing things differently? Brilliant. Thank you. Mark. So, I'm going to move us on to the next kind of, broad topic, which I would put under the heading, are we doing this together?

00:04:45:22 - 00:05:10:04
Unknown
So we've had questions around kind of strategies and individual areas, whether the vision allows for radical change. So again, I'm going to kind of direct the first question to you. So various directorates are already writing their own strategies. Stop. How did these feed into the Manchester 2035 strategy, or will they need reviewing afterwards. And that questions come from a colleague.

00:05:10:06 - 00:05:36:15
Unknown
So so there's a strong answer already there. But yes. Yeah. So so I really appreciate the energy and excitement that people have in terms of wanting to align their, their group, their, their director, their, their department or school or faculty with the emerging strategy. But we need to do this in a structured way. And what I don't want to have happen is a lot of energy expended on writing some strategy before even written our whole institutional strategy.

00:05:36:15 - 00:06:00:07
Unknown
And it's really important that there's a kind of strong alignment between our strategy and then how we operate as an institution. It is something I'm quite kind of obsessed about, because I think what can happen at universities is there can be a drift away from the overarching strategy, and people start to get cynical about it and lose faith in it, and we don't hold ourselves accountable, then for the delivery and execution.

00:06:00:07 - 00:06:23:18
Unknown
In the same way, if we are tightly aligned so that alignment between the university strategy and then what we do in in business, you know, in, in natural sciences, in pH is super important. And so we are going to take a different approach, maybe to the past. We are not going to have a whole sub industry of writing sub strategies to the strategy.

00:06:23:20 - 00:06:41:09
Unknown
You know, we'll talk about that in due course. But I've, I've sort of said, I mean there's interesting challenges, but I've sort of said we're not going to have people writing strategies now, until we've settled the whole of university strategy. And that's partly an energy thing, but it's a focus thing. It's an alignment thing as well.

00:06:41:11 - 00:07:08:21
Unknown
Right? When we think about public research organizations, we are one of those, the full vision will come at the university level, the mission ambition, the who we want to be, that identity that we want to take. What I have seen in my former institutions is that then we need to ask each division, each school, each faculty, to think about how they can contribute to this big picture.

00:07:09:02 - 00:07:40:04
Unknown
So there is a kind of top down and bottom up approach. And yeah, the, the be the general vision will set up these general goals. We want to take. But then we need to ask KPIs, what how are you going to contribute to that big picture. And that needs to be reported back to the full vision that the universities take in, because that's the only way to make sure that when we arrive into 2035 and we think back, have we achieve our goals, we all going to see, okay, we can't give you ten.

00:07:40:05 - 00:08:01:16
Unknown
That's small bits and that make our strategy successful. So it's always really important. So what's really important is I don't want to be misunderstood. It's not that we don't need a really strong bottom up response. It's quite the opposite. And I actually think sometimes that kind of sub strategy, thing can get in the way of the right kind of bottom up engagement we need.

00:08:01:16 - 00:08:21:23
Unknown
So it's not a top down, bottom versus bottom up thing. It's actually creating the right framework within which for people to respond and think through. And help us enable that strategy then to be delivered, which, as I keep saying, is just as important, even more important than the actual why of the strategy. As I said, as I put it.

00:08:22:00 - 00:08:42:12
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, the the message is, is not really to stop thinking about the strategic exactly and how we respond to them, the implications, exactly the opposite. But to direct that energy in those ideas into the process so that we can feed it in and make those decisions. You know, I think I made the point at the townhall that that really effective organizations are those that always act in a top down way, because nobody at the top has all the answers.

00:08:42:12 - 00:09:00:20
Unknown
But actually allow the information from all different parts of the organization to flow up into that decision making process so that people are alive to opportunities and they know what's going on in in different areas with different technologies. And that's what we're trying to do with the process. Yeah. So to throw a slightly provocative question in the mix, then can

00:09:00:20 - 00:09:05:05
Unknown
the university even be radical in its future vision and position?

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:30:22
Unknown
Are we the kind of organization that that can achieve that? And that's a question from AMS. So from from colleagues. But I love it I love it. Yes I think we can be radical. And you know, almost as important is the recognition that we almost need to be a bit more radical. I mean, I think I said a few minutes ago that there's a sense of if we really want to get to where we want to be as a business school and as a university, we need to do more than just improve the way that we're doing things.

00:09:30:22 - 00:09:48:22
Unknown
We need to operate differently, really, to what question our assumptions about the offerings that we have, the degrees that we offer, how we offer them, where we offer them all those fundamental questions. So, you know, the imperative is that we can't afford not to. And if you look around, what's going on in the sector now is a really great moment of opportunity for us as a university.

00:09:48:22 - 00:10:07:07
Unknown
As a business school, we have all these amazing, resources and strengths that we have, and we just really need to harness them by thinking differently and thinking creatively about the problems that we face. So we have to do it. There's not an alternative, really, I disagree, I've written that I think we can be radical, but we cannot be fully radical.

00:10:07:12 - 00:10:34:04
Unknown
There are some basic of what we do as an institution, I think, is what Lucan has called fundamental foundation, foundations. We need to do teaching and we need to do research is part of the core of activities we do, and we cannot change. That is how we do it. Probably what we need to re update it into the century, the, the speed market that we see, how it changes and what are the external challenges and pressure.

00:10:34:06 - 00:10:56:17
Unknown
We need to react to, we do to innovation and to our own students. And I always tell them, well, be only radical is very risky, and we can take risks. But we need to be a bit incremental in the things what we do, but we do better as well. Sorry. No, no, it's a really great point. And I would agree with the the whole aspect being really important as well.

00:10:56:19 - 00:11:20:04
Unknown
One thing I would say that if you look at if you compare universities to other types of organizations, there's a couple of things that would make me a little bit cautious about not encouraging us to be a bit more risk seeking. One is that, I think the challenges that we face are kind of somewhat unprecedented. The financial pressures that we face, the technological, changes that, that we're right in the midst of at the moment.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:39:01
Unknown
I don't think we've quite faced those before in the same level. The other one is that universities, by their nature, tend to be quite conservative. So actually, if we were trying to push things just gently in one direction from, you know, being, you know, relatively conservative and thinking that what we do is always great and always find towards questioning what we do and doing things a little bit differently.

00:11:39:01 - 00:11:53:11
Unknown
I would probably be trying to nudges a little bit towards doing things differently. Yeah, but I take your point. We we're not going to stop doing research. We're not going to stop teaching degree programs. Right. So I'm going to move us from can we be radical to are we ready? So we

00:11:53:11 - 00:11:59:10
Unknown
had quite a few questions around the right organizational culture, and what that culture looks like.

00:11:59:12 - 00:12:19:19
Unknown
So one question we've received from a colleague is what is your vision for the one University strand of Manchester 2035? And how do you see it translating to the day to day school and faculty being? Yeah, I mean, this has been fascinating. You know, I thought it would be a really good conversation, but I never expected it to kind of take off in the way that it has.

00:12:19:19 - 00:12:40:21
Unknown
And that tells me something about the organization, which I, I see in a very positive light, which there seems to be a real appetite for us to embrace, thinking really hard about our culture and the way we work. There's no question that we're quite a fragmented institution, and some of that is inevitable. As you know, as Mark said, universities are structured in a certain way.

00:12:40:21 - 00:13:07:10
Unknown
And and that's why we've been around for a thousand years. But for me, what one university means is where wherever possible, we are looking in a holistic way at the way we teach, the way we research, the way we work with our partners, the way we think about our campus, the way we think about our strategy. And we're not looking at it, exclusively or mainly through, you know, one faculty, one school, one piece where we providing opportunities for our colleagues to step back and say, how can we do this better collectively?

00:13:07:10 - 00:13:27:12
Unknown
How do we do this together? And there are two critical reasons for doing that. I think. One is, is a sort of just pragmatic. That's how we're going to survive, because, you know, we, you know, we're moving into a very different financial sort of environment for universities where endless growth, which has been the case, you know, for the last ten years, is now over.

00:13:27:12 - 00:13:49:12
Unknown
And we're going to need to grow in new and different ways, but be absolutely ruthless that I mean that in a in the sort of thinking sense about our resources and how we optimize our resources and how we find ways to keep investing. But secondly, I think great universities are going to be the ones that harness their research and teaching and partnership, capabilities in really creative and innovative ways.

00:13:49:15 - 00:14:15:00
Unknown
That's what I think a great university is going to look like in 2035, where people see us harnessing, you know, the different research strengths and capabilities we have, incorporating our student experience into that, working with our partners, being more porous, being more open as an institution. So to do that, we need to get better at working collectively in a way that we probably haven't before, maybe haven't needed to, before.

00:14:15:00 - 00:14:36:12
Unknown
So to me, that's the opportunity, not easy. And, you know, certainly that's been some of the some of the feedback to me so far has been you got to fix that group there. The problem or it's, it's, it's the senior leadership team. They're the problem. And of course that's interesting data for me. That's interesting feedback for me because it kind of reflects maybe where we are culturally as an institution.

00:14:36:12 - 00:15:03:20
Unknown
On the other hand, there's the same I get the same amount of feedback with people saying, Duncan, the appetite to change and to work differently is there. You just need we just need to lean into it. So we're we're poised. I think, at an interesting moment in the strategy process around the one university theme. Yeah. So again, to ask then quite provocatively and picking up on another question we received around this, does the current university structure align with one with the modern Manchester vision?

00:15:03:22 - 00:15:36:11
Unknown
And this, colleague referenced that there were suggestions in a few of the Manchester 2035 discovery sessions of removing the faculty layer from the structure. Is that a model that exists? Is it being considered for the university or how does one university then work in practice? So the very first, the very this is I'm sharing a story now, the very first, I think, or second communication I got from the University of Manchester when after my appointment was from a group of colleagues, I said, Duncan, the first thing you must do is abolish the faculties.

00:15:36:13 - 00:16:05:12
Unknown
It was a group of heads of school who sent me that, that missive. But look, as I said, as I said in a couple forums, you know, structure should follow strategy. And often the challenge you have as an organization is that strategy sometimes by default follows structure. And if you drop a radical strategy or an ambitious strategy into an existing structure, you create all kinds of friction and frustration sometimes in an organization.

00:16:05:14 - 00:16:28:19
Unknown
So the question for me is, what are the structural changes that we feel we need to make in order to achieve the ambitions that are emerging through the process? There is no kind of plan to abolish schools or faculties at this stage, but me, we might imagine how faculties work together or how schools work together, how RPS operates across the institution.

00:16:28:23 - 00:16:45:21
Unknown
We might imagine that being very different, you know, one, two, three years hence than it is now. And in some ways, as Mark said, I think it will have to be different. But at this stage we're not actually there hasn't really been a there's been a few, there hasn't been like a groundswell of people sitting down with the faculties.

00:16:46:01 - 00:17:06:18
Unknown
I mean, no doubt after this podcast my inbox will fill up. But I do think we will have to think about our structures, because it's clear that some of our structures are inhibiting us at this point in time. But exactly how we change that, I think, is still something we're working through. Yeah. And I think that's the really the key point.

00:17:06:18 - 00:17:27:21
Unknown
I understand why people are, sometimes critical of the faculty structure because, you know, there are coordination problems that come with it, but it's a difficult job to do. The critical question for me is what would it what would it solve to to abolish the faculty structures? I mean, fundamentally, you know, mobile made a good point earlier about with we're facing a not uncommon innovation challenge.

00:17:27:21 - 00:17:45:19
Unknown
It's how to keep going and excelling with our existing operations while potentially creating the space to do new things. And this is where the issue of structure becomes so important. How do you do that within the confines of the existing structures? Do you need new structures, new vehicles in order to pursue new ventures? That's one common way that, yeah, other organizations proceed with that.

00:17:45:24 - 00:18:08:07
Unknown
That then raises a whole other load of challenges, because then you get one part of the organization going off doing something really radical, doing something very exciting. Another resource migrates there. Then you've got lots of tensions between other parts of the organization, competition for resources, those kinds of things. So it requires very careful thinking in terms of how we manage that tension, doing the new versus continuing to excel with our existing operations.

00:18:08:09 - 00:18:35:05
Unknown
If I can add two points on that, one is, we can learn from examples of other institutions, that have a similar model towards the one we want to have. It could be, institutions in the Russell Group here in the UK. It could come from overseas as well. Those universities that have had a really specific identity, if I can make an example, Arizona State University is an example where they put a lot of emphasis on impact.

00:18:35:05 - 00:18:59:15
Unknown
For example, they we can learn from then what works well doesn't work. And learning from peers is part of of the learning as an institution. That's that's one point. And of course, I forgot one. Yeah. About the structure during the townhall we mentioned. I don't believe that we need to break all the structure. We have that because the strategy will take 20 years to materialize.

00:18:59:21 - 00:19:28:19
Unknown
But there are parts of the, of the current, the structure that probably we can just make a better useful, make better use of it. We mentioned the beacons and the platforms. They institutes. We have parts of the structure that maybe they are not at the core currently of how we operate, but we can make it more prominent. There could be others that maybe needs to be added, but breaking everything in the way we work, I think it will just, make our strategy more difficult to.

00:19:28:19 - 00:19:47:13
Unknown
Yeah. And and I maybe that's very helpful. Because, you know, that discussion around platforms and institutes and, both in the research and in our innovation sort of space, that's exactly the conversation we're having. People are saying, hey, we could really big up the platforms in ways that, you know, we haven't even imagined up to this point.

00:19:47:13 - 00:20:15:03
Unknown
And that's been a really fruitful discussion. So I think that's exactly feels like that's sort of where we're heading. So I'm going to move us on. I'm going to turn this section where strategy makes impact with reality. So, you know, it's all well and good, us as an organization kind of thinking about who do we want to be, where do we want to be, but how do we actually ensure that our strategy remains adaptable and resilient in the face of various changes?

00:20:15:03 - 00:20:31:04
Unknown
So things like, proposed funding or potential government funding cuts, to higher education, you know, differences in attracting international students. How can we account for that? You know, ten, ten years out, basically.

00:20:31:04 - 00:20:44:21
Unknown
the brutal truth is that you can't you can't predict what's going to happen in ten years. But what you have to try and do is set your ambitions and your and your your vision for what you want to achieve in such a way that allows you to have that flexibility to in terms of pursuing different ways of achieving it.

00:20:44:21 - 00:21:02:20
Unknown
I mean, it would be a radical surprise if the general direction of travel that we set out in the strategy process is not one that we that we couldn't have anticipated. The question is, how are we going to get there? I mean, if you think about the broad goals of the university, I think Duncan said fairly early in his tenure, actually, that that's unlikely to change what we need to do world class research.

00:21:02:20 - 00:21:20:23
Unknown
It needs to be impactful. We need to be doing a world class teaching and learning, and we need to be a socially responsible organization that's contributing to to wider society. Would be surprised if that were to change. But the key is in the data and how we do that. So you have to set those big picture ambitions and then, yes, have an idea about how you're going to get there.

00:21:20:23 - 00:21:49:03
Unknown
But to allow sufficient flexibility in your roadmap so that you can stay alive. I mean, who could have predicted the Covid and the effect they had probably, you know, okay, epidemiologists will probably argue that we told you some of them did. Yeah. As a university, we didn't really see the ramifications of that. Yeah. So that's the key really, I think is to is to not be is to be unwavering in your commitment to that bigger vision that you want to achieve, but to allow flexibility in how you achieve it, especially with a ten year cycle, because that is quite a long time.

00:21:49:03 - 00:22:24:14
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, maybe. What does your research tell us anything about? Yeah. Well, yeah. That are we need to take advantage of the opportunities that the market, the higher education market creates as well. We have been doing research, for example, on, the idea of micro-credentials as an additional income, to the university as well as, as a way to capture role the type of student that is a way to contribute to our civic, role as a university and social responsibility as well.

00:22:24:16 - 00:22:49:08
Unknown
We have seen, for example, in Europe, not only in the UK, that in the last three years, let's say micro-credentials online, not only online, but these short courses that are stackable seems a way that universities is going through, as an alternative learning opportunities. Can we do things like that? What about the research where the income will come from?

00:22:49:08 - 00:23:14:15
Unknown
We focus a lot on the income that comes from that is specifically the UK government. We are now back in Europe, formally recognized. We never left it, but now is formally recognized. I saw a couple of days ago an announcement from Dorset saying that they are pushing UK universities to go back to your resumed. What's the name. No, it's not too well the funding from the European Union or Europe.

00:23:14:17 - 00:23:53:01
Unknown
Yeah. Thank you. So we have opportunities for this additional income. But I need to say that for some of these grants, big grants at the European level or even the road, we need to huge support the staff helping with that. So we need to think that without the, professional staff that will help us to apply, for larger grants or, you know, helping with, the administration of our teaching activities, it would be very, very difficult, really, to accommodate all of these, potential, you know, opportunities.

00:23:53:01 - 00:24:14:21
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I mean, as Mark said, I mean, the the strategy process that we've kicked off has been informed by some hypotheses about the future. Right? So we think, you know, research will be, as one of your colleagues put it to me, you know, big themes, big teams, we think learning and teaching and learning will be more personalized, more experiential, more skills based than ever before.

00:24:14:21 - 00:24:34:07
Unknown
We think it will need to be more flexible and more sort of stackable as as Mabel said, we know that we're going to have to be better at partnership than ever before because a lot of where there is new funding, it's all about partnering up, whether it's with government, whether it's with industry, whether it's community organizations. And we know geopolitically we're in a much more volatile period.

00:24:34:07 - 00:25:03:02
Unknown
Right. The I guess you could argue, colleagues in politics, as they were never in a nonvolatile period. But I think we're in a particularly intensely volatile period for higher education globally. So we have made some there's some hypotheses that's informing the strategy. And I think if we get it right, then we'll be an organization that can better respond to the world we're in than we perhaps were before, or at least oriented to what we think the future will bring, you know, than perhaps we were before.

00:25:03:04 - 00:25:17:22
Unknown
It's quite funny. One of one I had a fascinating conversation with one of our, our donors of the night, and he said, Duncan, ten years isn't enough. You need to have a 50 year strategy, he said. I said, man, it was hard enough, you know, to get ten years at the table, let alone 50. But he was on to something.

00:25:17:22 - 00:25:43:11
Unknown
He was on to something else. Yeah. Well, one thing about large organizations is how bureaucratic and rigid sometimes they become. And that relates to our own structure, as we were mentioning, again, coming back to our own teaching, to our own students, when we speak about innovation in large organizations, we said, well, we they really need to create specific mechanisms for the innovation and creativity to take place.

00:25:43:17 - 00:26:10:06
Unknown
If not, it just becomes so rigid. The organization itself that it's going to be very difficult. I think that applies to us. Yeah, it could be a really large organization. So without the right structure and the right mechanisms, it's going to be difficult to achieve that just yet. And getting back to Marc's point, I am really interested in how we create, you know, not necessarily breakaway things, but how do we how do we get innovation going within the university in ways that hopefully allow us to scale it and iterate it?

00:26:10:06 - 00:26:29:19
Unknown
And I think that's a really interesting challenge. And we're already experimenting with that. You know, the Manchester online work that Dan George and the team are doing around online is a version of that, unit and that Lou and the team are standing up as a version of that. And we sort of, I think we need to take more risk and be more experimental in that way, because you're right, that's our biggest risk.

00:26:29:21 - 00:26:54:24
Unknown
You know, the centrifugal force, you know, or without getting too complex here, you know, the second law of thermodynamics means that entropy always kicks in. You're always pulled. Energy is always seeping out of the system. So how do we keep it? You know, energy coming. And, you know, Frank gales, your colleague, has done some really nice work around how innovation drives, how innovation helps drive, you know, change in relation to climate.

00:26:55:01 - 00:27:16:11
Unknown
And and so I've been reading his book and he's quite interesting on this point. You've got to create these kind of seeds of innovation and hope that they break through and change the organism in over time. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the critical bit there and where, you know, human systems are a little bit different from, from natural systems is the role of learning in that and learning in the mindful sense.

00:27:16:11 - 00:27:31:10
Unknown
And one of the challenges for us as we try these new things and working in different ways, new ventures, the types of things that mobile alluded to is what we learn from the yeah, and the speed of how we learn from that. So if we we try, we do pluck up the courage to try something and to appropriately resource it.

00:27:31:12 - 00:27:45:05
Unknown
That's not when you've done that. That's not the point to stop. That's the point actually, where you really look hard and reflect on has this worked? Has it been received well by students in the marketplace? Is it not worked? If not, why not? Maybe it's worked for another university. Maybe it works for Arizona State. Doesn't work for us.

00:27:45:10 - 00:28:00:17
Unknown
But that's the point at which you then think, okay, what do we learn from this? And how do we get together as a community and think, well, we tried that. It didn't work. Let's try it. Let's go. Yeah, let's try something different. And that's the one of the key challenges that many organizations really struggle with. It's often much easier to learn the wrong lessons than to learn the right ones.

00:28:00:20 - 00:28:04:03
Unknown
And those those are little pockets and seeds of innovation.

00:28:04:03 - 00:28:24:08
Unknown
So let's turn to at least for a colleague. And spark has identified as the elephant in the room. And that's our reliance on international students. And Chinese market in particular. So how can we create a strategy that incorporates flexibility and resilience in that regard? Yeah. Look, it's a great question.

00:28:24:08 - 00:28:45:19
Unknown
And, you know, this is one of the kind of geopolitical and organizational challenges we've got. 40% of our students are international. So we're neither a university that has the highest proportion of international students. But we're in that sort of upper tier. There are other universities that have more. And we have, you know, close to 10,000 students from from mainland China and other territories.

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:06:19
Unknown
And, of course, these are wonderful students. They bring so much to our campus. It's it's amazing to welcome them every year. But the world is changing and China is changing. I think, you know, predictions of my game, but my sense is that an all our intelligence tells us that the floor is not going to drop completely away in that market.

00:29:06:19 - 00:29:30:07
Unknown
There's certainly a slight to quality. And as long as we continue to focus on delivering high quality programs and providing a great experience, I think we'll still see students coming to us and we'll still be able to to have that kind of, profile, that we, we, we want. But we do need to be thinking about the future in which international students, have a different we have a different profile of international students.

00:29:30:07 - 00:29:46:14
Unknown
And we, you know, we interact with those markets in new and different ways. So we need to look hard at our postgraduate teaching offer, for example. So we've kicked off a review. We need to look hard at our undergraduate, the student experience, which we talked about earlier, to make sure the students are having a genuinely good experience.

00:29:46:14 - 00:29:55:16
Unknown
And one thing I've learned is we probably we have a lot of work to do in that space. Some schools and faculties, some schools are doing a brilliant job, but as an institution we've got more to do.

00:29:55:16 - 00:30:03:16
Unknown
Final point. You know, some people think that, you know, that the international student market kind of just blossomed overnight.

00:30:03:18 - 00:30:26:03
Unknown
But it was actually a long period of hard work that built the, the, the, the, the current situation where we see families in, in East Asia and in Southeast Asia and China coming to the UK and North America, it took a lot of work, took a long time. So we, you know, we need to take the same attitude towards new markets and new opportunities, right?

00:30:26:07 - 00:30:55:17
Unknown
It's going to take time. So the real challenge is can we can we work through this transitional period and keep everything afloat at the same time? And, you know, that's the reality that's hitting the high education market in Britain. Right. In the UK right now. Some universities are not able to do that. And it's pretty brutal. And we need to be really thoughtful and, strategic and prudent about the next few years and not be complacent.

00:30:55:19 - 00:31:15:17
Unknown
Because that is, we're not immune to those challenges either. I think one of the most interesting words that Duncan use there was diversification. And I, you know, this is just my own view, not the university's view. But I will give it for what it's worth, I think that that's going to be so important for us and in particular, diversifying, sources of income.

00:31:15:21 - 00:31:37:16
Unknown
I think that's so important for us. And if you think about what diversification means in really simple terms, there are two types of it. One is we diversify in terms of where we essentially sell our existing offerings. In other words, we diversify on the market side. We look to other markets, emerging markets to potentially compensate, not just for the downturns in China and India, but for future downturns that might in particular markets.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:53:20
Unknown
We tend we have tended to be quite concentrated in terms of reliance on particular markets. Although I would agree, if you look at certain areas, look at the business school, for example, we've worked really hard to diversify. I think we can do more on the market side. The other side of the equation is what we can do to diversify on the supply side, correct?

00:31:53:21 - 00:31:56:05
Unknown
I think this is where we have a lot of scope, actually.

00:31:56:05 - 00:32:03:15
Unknown
I think when you say I will pick diversity, diversification as well as a keyword, but I think there is some other layer.

00:32:03:15 - 00:32:25:09
Unknown
So it's not only diversification in terms of the geographical markets where we got our students will come from. It's also within who is the other, the average student and I mean by age, for example. So if on average, our students tend to be, I don't know, 18 to 21, 22 years old, when we think about undergraduate, that is changing in the market as well.

00:32:25:09 - 00:32:47:21
Unknown
And that's where our potential online offer will have for, say, we are seen, a lot of, requirement on upskilling and reskilling of people that is working. And with the speed of new technologies, for example, we know AI is one of them, but that applies to many other digital technologies that have been developed in the last 5 to 10 years.

00:32:47:23 - 00:33:15:18
Unknown
There is a huge need for, reducing the shortages in the skills that the labor market require. That applies to our own students and graduates, the most younger ones. But it will be a way to contribute to society and thinking who else? How can we diversify? That could be, I don't know, somebody 35 years old that wants to change job and they just need to, risk themselves.

00:33:15:18 - 00:33:35:06
Unknown
Think of it. Okay, maybe I need something on management because I now want to take, you know, a more managerial role in the type of activities I will do. I think we have a huge market in that way that does not necessarily be international. It could be both national and international. And that's where things like online, teaching could help.

00:33:35:08 - 00:33:38:12
Unknown
And that relates to your point about the offer we have

00:33:38:12 - 00:33:48:11
Unknown
So we've had a question around kind of career anxiety, work loads and anxiety around continuous change.

00:33:48:13 - 00:33:54:24
Unknown
Well, how can we address that to make sure that colleagues on on feeling a huge amount of anxiety around change.

00:33:54:24 - 00:34:07:15
Unknown
what when, when topic we, we spoke about during the town hall was about, careers, specifically the academic careers. To be honest, I'm not, fully aware of the, of the PPS side.

00:34:07:15 - 00:34:33:08
Unknown
So, specific thinking on academic careers and what are the expectations, that academics need to achieve that's particularly important for our early career colleagues that are starting that journey. So if we think about so interdisciplinary is a core goal of university, how the different career paths will, not penalize for taking that, that path in stage.

00:34:33:08 - 00:34:55:06
Unknown
We want something that will will promote this kind of career paths as well, but is also thinking that I don't believe that everybody can be excellent and outstanding in all of the many tasks we are expected to do. I think of that mix, for example, but is the combination of the forces of all of us. If I'm really good in teaching and doing research, let's combine that, my colleague.

00:34:55:08 - 00:35:13:10
Unknown
It will be great doing research on speaking with government and transferring that knowledge into the government. So then society, I think, comes from thinking that we need to do all and we do all those tasks at the maximum level we can with a 24 hours stay. In a way.

00:35:13:10 - 00:35:19:09
Unknown
I think new kinds of career pathways are opening up in both the PPS and academic world, in a funny way.

00:35:19:11 - 00:35:41:14
Unknown
In some cases, they're they're moving closer together. So you have highly skilled staff who are helping researchers get the most out of very sophisticated infrastructure and equipment, for example. And increasingly, you have academics who are really enjoying engaging with government and influencing policy in a way that perhaps was the preserve of a particular kind of policy kind of person.

00:35:41:14 - 00:35:57:22
Unknown
So that's kind of exciting to me. And I think we have to be a university where we're thinking about that, you know, take a bit more risk around that and think of different kinds of profiles. The point about change is really interesting. I mean, I do think we need to and I'm sort of, this is probably going to come back to haunt me.

00:35:57:22 - 00:36:19:08
Unknown
But I do think we need to have a kind of Manchester view about how we do change. And I almost want to banish the word change because, you know, one doesn't have to be a Buddhist to think that the river is always flowing and one is always stepping into the river and, and, and things. Nothing is permanent. All is change.

00:36:19:10 - 00:36:36:02
Unknown
And I don't mean to be facetious, that probably sounds a bit facetious, but I do think it's just the reality of the world and the sector we live in. Sometimes it's self-imposed and we need to own that, be accountable for that. As, as, as colleagues said in the meeting and learn, as Mark said, how we can do it better next time.

00:36:36:04 - 00:37:00:08
Unknown
But we do need to be the kind of organization that can adapt, be flexible, continue to learn and continue to sort of respond to the opportunities and changes. Having a core set of values, always having a North star, always, but embracing the fact that, you know, nothing is really permanent. But having said that, yeah, people need to know what their jobs are if they're going to have a job.

00:37:00:08 - 00:37:17:15
Unknown
All that stuff is super important. But I do think it's us becoming a better learning organization. I really believe that, as I I've been saying around the place, it's let's not embrace that kind of blame culture. And of course, we should hold people accountable when things go wrong. Leadership should be accountable. We should be accountable to each other.

00:37:17:15 - 00:37:49:03
Unknown
But great organizations are characterized by high levels of trust and high levels of accountability. The two things go together. And how do we get there? How do we create that culture rather than immediately think it must be somebody else's fault and you know, they're the problem, not me. That's that's a cultural challenge. I think for us. Yeah, I think just on that issue of kind of the change anxiety, one observation that I would make, again, just my own observation is that often that anxiety comes because people aren't clear on why we're trying to change whatever it is that we're trying to change.

00:37:49:05 - 00:38:07:18
Unknown
Sometimes that happens because of, problems around communication. And what I don't mean there is not it's not that we don't have detailed plans for engagement and to ensure that we, communicate via email. It's actually that we just don't explain sometimes the rationale, the big picture. Why are we doing this? Like, what are we trying to achieve?

00:38:07:20 - 00:38:35:00
Unknown
Even if we think that reason is going to be potentially contentious, even if we fear that people won't necessarily buy into it and will challenge it, that's okay. That's fine. Right? That's it. I think it's such I think it's such an important, risky challenge. People can disagree. And it's and if you particularly when we're thinking about the changes around our ten year strategy, if we knew that it was all going to work out and all would go to plan 100%, then again, we're probably not aiming high enough.

00:38:35:00 - 00:39:01:03
Unknown
But but just being really crystal clear on people about why we're trying to to change things is so important. And actually it reduces that anxiety because not least if you do that, it gives the sense that actually this people are really taking this seriously, and people are well-intentioned and they're trying to achieve something that as one university, we can buy into, even if we think it's going to be painful, even if there are going to be some shortcomings in the in the immediate future.

00:39:01:05 - 00:39:16:13
Unknown
Great Mark. And May. Well, I think you have to dash, you have another meeting and you've taken time out of your busy day. So thank you so much for lending your expertise and being part of this conversation. Thank you. Yes, thank you for that great, great discussion. Yeah.

00:39:16:13 - 00:39:26:19
Unknown
Okay. So, Duncan, you are able to stay. We've got a few more questions. So these are kind of around philanthropy, staff wellbeing, teaching and learning research.

00:39:26:21 - 00:39:56:08
Unknown
So I'll, I'll just kick us off with another question from a ms.. And this one is around philanthropy. So is there a concern that philanthropy could lead the university following the direction of big donors rather than, kind of an internally agreed strategy? Yeah, great. Great question. I mean, I think for me, the the, the sweet spot in philanthropy is when you bring the sort of needs and ambitions of the university as close as possible to the dreams and aspirations of the donor.

00:39:56:08 - 00:40:26:00
Unknown
That's a great philanthropic organization. Does that. And part of the solution to, to, to not simply being pushed pillar to post by what particular donors want, is being really clear about your strategy in the first place is this is what we want to do, and this is why we need you to help us. And we think your dreams and aspirations as, as, as a fancy person, as a donor can be realized through the work, through our students, through the teaching and research or partnership or impact that we have.

00:40:26:00 - 00:40:55:12
Unknown
So that is our general approach and mindset. But I think where there are differences between us and a donor, we have to be really honest and open about that. And in my experience, that that is something that, you know, good, practice requires, you cannot sort of tiptoe around that, and, you know, I have been in situations where we have had to hand back a gift because we just did not really accept the terms upon which it was being offered or the way in which it was.

00:40:55:12 - 00:41:25:02
Unknown
It was playing out. So you need to be really clear on your strategy, really clear on your values. Be talking and engaging with your with your potential donors, on those terms, and then be open and honest about things when they're not working. There's no grounds for compromising the values of the university for any kind of gift. But having said that, it's amazing how, you know, you you can connect with people who really weren't seeing what your ambition was before.

00:41:25:02 - 00:41:45:10
Unknown
When you get better at telling your story and when you're clear about what your ambitions are. So like I said, that's the sweet spot we want to occupy. Great. Thank you Duncan. So we'll move on to some questions around staff wellbeing and engagement. So we're writing this amazing strategy great ambitions. But where does staff wellbeing figure in the development of that strategy.

00:41:45:10 - 00:42:07:21
Unknown
Yeah no really important. And I'm very you know at the end of the day, you know probably some of the most important elements of staff wellbeing is, you know, they have a sense of belonging to the institution. They feel they're being listened to. They, have, you know, trust in their colleagues and feel they can, you know, engage with, with leadership at all different levels, that their workload is not out of control.

00:42:07:24 - 00:42:28:23
Unknown
And they feel kind of empowered to do the job. So doing like those are kind of fundamental, basic things. And every theory of wellbeing says that you really need to get those things right. And then, you know, in addition to all the other things that we want to do in the wellbeing space. And, you know, we've had this wellbeing campaign, which has been terrific, great, great feedback from colleagues around that, but also the need to get the basics right.

00:42:29:00 - 00:42:49:20
Unknown
So I think whatever else we do in the strategy, we always need to remember that those are core elements of of, you know, feeling a sense of belonging, feeling you're empowered to do your job, feeling as though you're being listened to, feeling as though you know the sort of direction of the university and your role in it. We need to get those basics right.

00:42:49:22 - 00:43:12:04
Unknown
You know, and that really is an enabling condition for everything else you want to do in the strategy. Yeah. So it sounds like it will be kind of woven throughout. Yeah, yeah. And there was no. And look, a lot of it is, is, is kind of, you know, being really clear about that. But at the same time understanding how that helps you then achieve the other things you're trying to achieve through the strategy that it needs to be woven all the way, all the way through.

00:43:12:04 - 00:43:31:14
Unknown
And wellbeing is not only, you know, Helen's job or it's not only people's the people director, it's job, you know, it's it's how you know, it's how our heads of department and heads of school, it's how the university executive. It's it's how we interact with each other and it's how we create that inclusive environment. I mean, that sense of belonging is really important.

00:43:31:14 - 00:43:55:03
Unknown
And, you know, I we've had a great discussion, today with, with the leaders of our staff networks and that seeing inclusivity as, you know, something we do by design, I think is a really powerful, enabling condition for the strategy as a whole. So that's something, you know, I'm really committed to. But, you know, we're going to have to think practically about what that means.

00:43:55:05 - 00:44:19:01
Unknown
Wonderful. Thank you. So moving on to kind of more teaching and learning related questions. So, this is a question from the School of Health Sciences in MH. And it's around service learning and community engagement work. And how would these feature in our future? Yeah. So this is one of the really big exciting ideas that is is getting discussed at the moment in a whole range of places and something I'm quite passionate about.

00:44:19:03 - 00:44:39:05
Unknown
And in fact, I think it was at a town hall or somebody put it to me that rather than call it service learning, call it learning through service, which I think is a really lovely way of kind of framing the concept. The big dream here is that how do we mobilize our 47,000 students in ways that can create value, not only for them, but the communities we serve?

00:44:39:05 - 00:45:01:15
Unknown
It's such, I think, a powerful, exciting idea where our students where if you come to the University of Manchester embedded in your program for credit, as part of your core set of learning experience, you get a chance to put your learning into context, whether that's through internships, whether that's through working as part of a multidisciplinary team on a problem our partners give us, whether it's a field school, whether it's exchange, whatever it is.

00:45:01:15 - 00:45:37:13
Unknown
And we're kind of thinking through all these options that that would be a distinctive thing that the Manchester experience provides you, that you know, another way to think of it is, you know, bringing our students into that social responsibility pillar. That is so, you know, I know, so deep in the institution part of our DNA. So, so the service learning concept is really, a potentially exciting, transformative idea for how we think about mobilizing our students in new ways and how it's not just about, you know, sending our students off and saying, you know, go solve the problems of the world.

00:45:37:15 - 00:45:54:09
Unknown
It's also working with our partners saying, how do we how do we help you? How do we learn from you? And I just think there's all kinds of ways in which not only is that a fantastic experience for our students, but they leave the university, I think with a new set of skills. They leave the university, hopefully with new networks, which they didn't have when they arrived.

00:45:54:09 - 00:46:12:10
Unknown
Like not every student arrives with a, you know, a great set of networks. That's actually something that, you know, many students don't have the privilege or the opportunity to develop. So I think that would be a very powerful way of of expressing our commitment to the student experience in, in quite a, I think, a new way for, for the institution.

00:46:12:10 - 00:46:27:23
Unknown
So, you know, I'm really excited by we'll see what happens. But there's some great ideas bubbling away in that space. It's that it sounds really exciting. I would have loved to have done this. Yeah. Same here. Yeah, this sounds so cool. So the next question is from the School of Engineering. FSE

00:46:27:23 - 00:46:46:24
Unknown
and it's around addressing the disparity between teaching and research. So in terms of reward and priority. Yeah, I mean, this has been a, this has been a regular theme, of a whole range of conversations I've been having with colleagues. I mean, and sometimes this phrase is sort of parity of esteem.

00:46:46:24 - 00:47:09:14
Unknown
And of course, teaching is at the core of everything we do. But there's also a oh, there's often a feeling that because research is kind of drives global league tables and because research is a, you know, measurable in all kinds of ways that people kind of get excited about. And because research is is something that, you know, at least on one level, seems to attract a lot of interest and funding.

00:47:09:16 - 00:47:36:03
Unknown
It seems to be something that an activity that's more privileged or seen as more valuable than teaching. And, you know, that just cannot be the case. I mean, I think, you know, great universities now, but certainly in the future are going to be those in which teaching and research excellence are cynical. No. And there's no trade off between them, whether in terms of imperative esteem, whether in terms of investment, whether in terms of the quality of the people where we're recruiting, whether in terms of the infrastructure we provide.

00:47:36:05 - 00:47:55:07
Unknown
And of course, in the UK, teaching is kind of the way, you know, we, we kind of make the place right, sort of pays our salaries and, and whatnot. So that's not the main, you know, reason for caring about it. But we we care about it because of the transformative experience for our students. But so I think this is something we need to really be open and honest about.

00:47:55:07 - 00:48:12:19
Unknown
If if colleagues do feel that there's a lack of parity of esteem, where is that coming from? Why do people feel that way? I mean, one reason why people might feel that way is because of our, you know, relative underperformance in teaching and our inability to turn that dial. So I think that's a great project for us to address collectively.

00:48:12:21 - 00:48:34:08
Unknown
And I think I feel confident that if we were able to start turning the dial, improving our student experience, you know, again, like these ideas around service learning or learning through service through our digital campus, I think that's a really exciting collective project that will really lift, you know, our commitment to teaching, the intersection between teaching and research.

00:48:34:08 - 00:48:58:01
Unknown
You know, one big idea in the research domain, for example, is to bring our students more into the multidisciplinary research agenda of the university. These are ways that build bridges between colleagues, between students and researchers, and really positioned the university in, I think, a really powerful place. For our partners and for others, who are we're looking and seeing what's Manchester's sort of commitment to its students.

00:48:58:01 - 00:49:25:13
Unknown
What's Manchester's how does it how does it bring its students into its, sort of research, activities? I think that's a great collective project for us. All right. I'm going to add my own bridge and bridges over to it, a research related question. Which is a final question for today. So how can we best use the Manchester 2035 process to ensure continued support and investment in groundbreaking research to create real world impact and that's from the School of Engineering.

00:49:25:13 - 00:49:47:06
Unknown
And yeah, so great question. So I think, again, one of the defining characteristics of great universities is going to be, the ability to accelerate the point between discovery and impact, the ability to get our research out into the world faster, making, the kinds of differences we need our research to make, given the urgency of the problems we face, given the nature of the problems we face.

00:49:47:08 - 00:50:14:02
Unknown
So I think it's that multidisciplinary, at scale opportunity we have as a large university that is going to be really critical to our future success and flourishing. And it's something that we can do in a way that other universities, I think can't, just given the scale of the university, given the sort of legacy here, given the infrastructure, we have given the kind of strong sense of place we have as an institution and our ability to connect with the community around us.

00:50:14:04 - 00:50:38:15
Unknown
And also given our kind of global position, our ability to attract amazing, colleagues and students to our campus. So I really think it's seeing our challenge as one of preserving the absolute critical importance and preciousness of discovery led research, whilst at the same time sort of accepting the challenge of getting it out into the world in new and creative ways.

00:50:38:15 - 00:50:56:12
Unknown
I think that's an amazing sort of agenda for us as an institution. I think it is something that we have a really distinctive role to play, not just in the UK but globally if we get it right. And so I'm really excited that this, you know, Collette and others in the research space at the moment are really thinking hard about how we do this.

00:50:56:12 - 00:51:15:08
Unknown
And I think, you know, I think it's a huge there's a huge opportunity, you know, think about the future of health care. We've got to find a way where our engineers are working with our biomedical researchers, but also our humanities researchers are thinking about, you know, the way in which, we we develop, you know, human centered sort of health care systems.

00:51:15:08 - 00:51:38:12
Unknown
There's just so much work that will require that multi-dimensional, multi sort of disciplinary approach. And we have a distinctive contribution to make in that space I think. Brilliant. Thank you. Duncan. That brings us to the end of today's Q&A. The huge thanks to you. Yeah. My pleasure. Great question Maple for sharing that insights. Great question. Thank you to all the staff, I guess, who submitted these amazing, amazing amazing amazing.

00:51:38:12 - 00:52:02:00
Unknown
And we'll keep I guess we'll keep figuring out how we answer these questions as we as we roll along in the weeks and months ahead. Yes, because there's been there's been a huge amount. We've tried to kind of pick the ones, that, you know, people seem most interested in where we can see all this. There's themes people are really, looking to find out more about, but yeah, it's there still might be some questions we haven't managed to get to for.

00:52:02:00 - 00:52:04:23
Unknown
There are, thanks to Duncan.